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Shiloh Discussion Group


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About drscolrbh

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  • Birthday 01/10/1954

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    Columbus, Ohio
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    American Civil War (Western Theater in particular), Civil War flags, reenacting & living history, Rutherford B. Hayes (my portrayal), pipe smoking, US manned and unmanned space exploration

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  • Ron

  1. Thanks, Perry, It was, in my view, a part of the history that has never been explored; at least maybe in the format that I presented. Too many people either don't want to deal with it, or even acknowledge that it existed. I'm glad I brought it up. When I was growing up in London, Ohio (small town west of Columbus), my Dad ran a grain elevator that had been in the family since 1886. I spent a lot of time around farmers, farms and the wide variety of livestock and whatever they left behind. Each variety had its own distinctive aroma. When I was 13, my Dad had me shovel out the hog barn on a farm that was owned by our family but run by another farmer. 500 hogs can produce quite a pile, and I did my work without the cover smoke from my pipe. On another tack, here's something to think about. If you could transport back to 1860s America, what is THE first thing you would notice? Conversely, if someone from 1862 could materialize into 2016, what would be THE first thing THEY would notice? Interesting to see what other members think. Stacy Allen is the undisputed expert on Shiloh by far. He knows his....well, you know. Best Regards, Dave
  2. Well, folks, I guess I hit a nerve. Not my intention. If you're going to study history, you have to look at all of it, as reprehensible as it may be. It happened, so you can't ignore it, much as you might want to. It is said that there are no bad questions, which is how I looked at mine. You have to be willing to look at the bad as well as the good. I once heard that if you look at your heroes and are unwilling to see their warts, then they aren't really heroes. If you can accept the warts, then they remain heroes. Now, having gotten the answer from Stacy Allen (and I knew I could rely on him for serious data), I will cheerfully agree to close the subject. Thanks for all the input. At least now you know the rest of the story. Dave
  3. I got a reply today from Stacy Allen at Shiloh NMP. As the Chief Historian at Shiloh, Stacy probably knows more about the Campaign and Battle than anyone else. Here is his answer about the Manure Index for the Battle of Shiloh: Considering the bad weather and conditions of the road, the Confederate army probably did not advance their entire wagon train to the battlefield. Also, except for command mounts and meager artillery the Federals were able to transport from Buell's command, his trains, etc., remained east of the river until after the battle. So, going with a conservative figure for the Confederate train, a conservative figure of 16,782 horses and mules were probably present at Shiloh. Records for animal deaths are incomplete, particularly among a number of key Confederate batteries, but documents do support at least 802 artillery horses/mules killed. We can probably elevate this to roughly 1,000... Another 72 cavalry mounts were documented killed, and again, records are incomplete and intermittent; and a significant number of field and general officer mounts were killed. So, a conservative figure of 2,000+ animals killed outright or those so severely wounded they were humanely destroyed in its aftermath, would not be unlikely. As for manure and urine, a 1,000-pound horse produces 35 pounds of manure daily (e.g. 9 tons annually) along with from 6 to 10 gallons of urine. Thus, 16,782 animals could generate 587,370 pounds of manure daily and up to 167,820 gallons of urine. An average human adult, given sufficient food and water intake produces seven pounds of waste daily (e.g. fecal [which accounts for most] urine, body cells, etc. combined). Thus, 109,782 battle participants could produce another 768,474 pounds of body waste daily, added to the projected daily equine load cited earlier. Again, the above equine totals are conservatively derived from incomplete data, but do provide a base matrix for understanding the nature of this matter. Thus, given Stacy’s information, the Manure Index of the Battle of Shiloh was as follows: Horses & Mules 16,782 total for April 6 & 7, 1862 35 lbs of manure/day for each 587,370 lbs/day x 2 days = 1,174,740 lbs (587.3 tons) Battle Participants 109,782 total for April 6 & 7, 1862 7 lbs body waste/day average 768,474 lbs/day x 2 days = 1,536,948 lbs (768.4 tons) Total Manure Index (Animal and Human) April 6 & 7, 1862 2,711,678 lbs (1,355.8 tons) It does help to dig into the minutiae of history from time to time (no pun intended. Any further comments are welcome. Dave Shaw
  4. Hey, Ron, It's all part of the minutia of history, I guess. Like Gettysburg, I suspect that the number of horses and mules killed at Shiloh was in the thousands. Existence for horses in the artillery arm was particularly harsh. And the lifespan for an artillery horse in battle? Mere minutes. The crap question still has to be asked, however, if only because there are those who do ask about it. Dave
  5. Thanks, Perry. I'll check back again to see if there is anything from Mona. Dave
  6. Greetings from Columbus, Ohio, This topic could be described as seeking information on the scents, smells and aromas of a Civil War battlefield. As horrific as it was--the sulfurous black powder, the scent of blood, the smell of dead flesh--one thing is rarely, if ever mentioned: the smell of animal waste. Simply put: what was the manure index of the Battle of Shiloh? A few years back, on one of my many visits to Gettysburg, I heard about the manure index of Gettysburg. Evidently the subject came up among some of the Licensed Battlefield Guides on a fairly slow tour day, and someone figured it out. There is a small booklet entitled Gettysburg By The Numbers, written by LBG Chuck Teague (copyright Adams County Historical Society, Gettysburg, Pennsylvania 2006). It's an amazing resource, and on page 20, he gives the following information: HORSES/MULES An estimated 67,000 horses and mules were used in immediate support of the armies, plus another estimated 20,000 mules in distant supply trains. Approximately 5,000--7,000 horses and mules were killed, either from wounds or being hard driven/ridden. JEB Stuart lost nearly 2,000 horses en route. Daily requirements for a horse 12--14 lbs. of grain (oats, barley, corn) for nutrition, 12--14 lbs. of fodder (grass or hay) for proper digestion, 10 gallons of water Daily requirements for a mule 9 lbs of grain, 12 lbs of fodder, 10 gallons of water Thus, each day the two armies had a requirement for over 1,000,000 lbs. of grain plus 1,000,000 lbs of fodder and over 800,000 gallons of water. Each animal produced 10--15 lbs of manure and 2 gallons of urine. Each day there was 1,000,00+ lbs of manure and 150,000 gallons of urine. Whew! Thus, if this is correct, for the three days of battle, plus June 30 when the armies arrived and plus July 4 while they remained in place, there would have been 5 million pounds of manure (2,500 tons) and 150,000 gallons of urine lying on the field. Besides the accumulated human waste, what did that much horse and mule poop smell like? Imagine the Biblical plague of flies! Well, after all that background, here is my question: does anyone know the approximate number of horses and mules at Shiloh on April 6 and April 7? Of course, this does not take into account that the Federal Army had been encamped at Pittsburg Landing for several weeks prior to the battle, or that the Confederate Army took 3 days to march from Corinth. Obviously, the armies at Shiloh were a good bit smaller than the armies at Gettysburg, so I would correctly assume that the number of horses and mules at Shiloh was equally or relatively less than those at Gettysburg. Even so (and pardon the pun), there would have been a LOT of crap on the ground at Shiloh. It may be a pretty weird question, but it seems to me to be a facet of Civil War history that is not talked about. I'll check back soon to see if anyone has any ideas. Thanks, David R. Shaw aka Rutherford B. Hayes
  7. Hi, Perry, Can you tell me how to post a photo? I think I looked at how to do it when I first joined the group, but now I've forgotten. After all, as Hayes, I'm 193. Some memory loss at that age is to be expected, I guess. Thanks. Dave Shaw
  8. Thanks, Ozzy! My wife looked up the 54th OVI on Yahoo, and one of the links was to Facebook. Clicking on the photos link took us to 22 photos, among which were some color images by Don Troiani. I was quite interested to note that soldiers in the 54th could wear either a fez or a tricorn hat on occasion. I wonder if this was common with other Zouave units, particularly as regards the tricorns. Dave
  9. Howdy, Sherman, Remember, in 1880 you shared the stage with me in Columbus, when you gave your famous quote about war to the veterans. No one remembers what I said. Best regards, David Shaw as portrayed by Rutherford B. Hayes
  10. Howdy, Memphis Belle, Thanks for the welcome. Looking forward to talking more. Dave
  11. Hi, Perry, Pretty much everything about Shiloh keeps my blood up. It's been more interesting to me than just about any other campaign or battle. I've been a dedicated Western Theater enthusiast ever since my Dad taught me to study the maps, and he said "Look at the rivers." Along with Shiloh, I get a great deal of enjoyment about studying Chickamauga, Stones River, Franklin and a lot of the actions in Kentucky. I'm also very interested in the Trans-Mississippi, and I hope one day to get out to Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma and Arkansas. One place I've never been and always wanted to go to is Pea Ridge. Even so, with all that, my heart will always be at Shiloh. One item about Shiloh I would like to touch on is the 54th Ohio. It was one of 3 Zouave regiments in the battle (the others being the 11th Indiana and the 8th Missouri). The monument for the 54th features a soldier in full Zouave attire; my question is this: are there any accounts that mention the 54th wearing their Zouave uniforms during the battle? I haven't found any. As for my portrayal of R. B. Hayes, that began in 1994 when my girlfriend (now my wife) and I were at the annual Civil War reenactment at the Hayes Presidential Center in Fremont, Ohio (the event was held every year on the weekend in October closest to Hayes's birthday on October 4. Last year was, unfortunately, the final year for the event). In 1994, while touring the Hayes home, my wife was struck by how much I looked like Hayes (I am no relation). Standing next to the portrait of Hayes as Colonel of the 23rd Ohio, she said that he and I could have been twin brothers; thus the portrayal was born. I have never done it on any sort of professional level. I just enjoy ringing Hayes's bell whenever I can--he was a genuine hero of the war. I also do a portrayal of Brigadier-General George S. Greene whenever I go to Gettysburg. Now if I could figure out a Shiloh portrayal, I think I'd be set. Hope that gives you a little background. Dave
  12. My name is David R. Shaw, and I live in Columbus, Ohio. I am 62 years old, and I've been studying the Civil War since my Dad got me started at age 5. Shiloh has always been and will always be my favorite battle, and my favorite battlefield. I have been to Shiloh 11 times since 1989, and I would visit a lot more if I lived closer. I am looking forward to discussing anything about the battle or the campaign with the members of the discussion group. I have been reenacting and doing living history since 1990, and I do a portrayal of Rutherford B. Hayes. Hope to hear from you soon.
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